WOZA Podcast Three - Turning the tide

Join CDH Conversations for the third and final episode of the CDH and WOZA Women in Law podcast series, hosted by Senior Associate, Muwanwa Ramanyimi. In this instalment, CDH Directors Simone Franks  and Mbali Khumalo, Dr Charissa Fawole, Lecturer at UJ, and Laura Dlepu from WOZA Women in Law form a panel of accomplished women who are actively reshaping the landscape of women in law.The podcast delves into various topics, including initiatives to promote women in the legal field, factors contributing to gender disparity, and strategies to overcome the challenges faced by aspiring women lawyers.

The panel addresses the concerning underrepresentation of women in leadership roles, engaging in discussions about the nuanced approach required to promote women without bias or discrimination. Each panelist shares valuable insights into mentorship programmes and initiatives dedicated to rectifying the gender imbalance within the legal profession.

The episode concludes with the panelists offering advice and encouragement to aspiring women lawyers navigating challenges within the field.

Transcript

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Good day everyone and welcome to the CDH Conversations podcast channel. I'm Muwanwa Ramanyimi, a Senior Associate in CDH’s Dispute Resolution department. This year marks 100 years of women in law, and to commemorate and celebrate this milestone, CDH is proud to partner with Women in Law South Africa (WOZA) to bring you a series of conversations with women who are leaders in the legal industry, and who are playing an active role in turning the tide for women in law.

In this third episode of the series, I have the honour and privilege of facilitating a conversation among four extraordinary women in law, whom I am inspired by and have the utmost respect for.

The first guest is Dr Charissa Fawole. Dr Fawole is a lecturer at the University of Johannesburg [UJ] in the Department of Public Law. She was appointed to the faculty in 2021. Her research focuses on children's rights, international law, forced migration and human rights, with a particular focus on Africa. She holds a Bachelor of Arts (Honours) in International Relations and Development Studies and a JD (Juris Doctor) from the University of Windsor in Canada. And she also holds an LLM and NLD from Stellenbosch University. Charissa was called to the bar in Ontario, Canada in 2010, and practised in the area of civil litigation at a boutique insurance firm. In addition to her role as a lecturer, she is the co-ordinator of a project funded by the Co-Impact Gender Fund entitled Developing a New Generation of Women Leaders in Law in Africa, developed by the University of Johannesburg Faculty of Law and its partners. Good day, Charissa.

Charissa Fawole: Thank you so much for inviting me to join this conversation.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: My second guest is Simone Franks. Simone Franks has been a Director at Cliffe Dekker Hofmeyr since 2001. She obtained BA and LLB degrees from the University of Western Cape in 1993 and 1995, respectively. She obtained her Postgraduate Diploma in Tax from the University of Cape Town in 1998. And her LLM in commercial law, also from the University of Cape Town, in 2004. Simone hails from CDH’s Real Estate department, where she heads up an all-female team, which she is immensely proud of.

Simone has served on various committees of the firm throughout her tenure, ranging from exco to graduate recruitment, the risk committee and the remuneration committee. Simone has been a notary public examiner for the Legal Practice Council [LPC] since 2004, and she's currently one of the drafters of the examinations held twice a year.

One of Simone's most rewarding projects that she has been engaged in is the Watergate affordable housing development, which commenced in 2010, in which over 1,500 homes have been transferred to first-time end purchases, the majority of whom are women. Hi, Simone.

Simone Franks: Good afternoon and thank you, Muwanwa. I'm very excited to be alongside your phenomenal and inspiring panellists engaging on this all-important topic today.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: My third guest is Laura Dlepu, a Co-director of the WOZA leadership NPC and also an Executive Assistant at Molefe Dlepu Incorporated. She holds a Bachelor of Commerce in Law degree from the University of Pretoria, majoring in financial accounting and taxation. She has also completed numerous short courses, earning herself over 15 certificates. She has recently acquired a professional designation as a Professional Director with the Directors Association South Africa.

At WOZA, Laura facilitates webinars presented by the organisation, supervises the branding and marketing for the organisation, and organises the events. She has been an Executive Assistant at Molefe Dlepu Incorporated since 2018, and sees to tasks such as marketing, business development and legal administration, compliance and office management. Welcome, Laura.

Laura Dlepu: Thank you very much for having me, and I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: The fourth and final guest is Mbali Khumalo. Mbali is also a Director at CDH in our Finance and Banking practice. Mbali has a Bachelor of Commerce and Bachelor of Law (cum laude). She spent a year at a leading law firm in New York as a visiting international attorney in their banking and finance department. Mbali’s expertise extends to both finance and debt capital markets and covers a broad range of transactions, including acquisition finance, structure to trade commodity finance, leverage finance, medium-term note programmes, inwards listings and stand-alone bond transactions. She has experience representing investment bank development finance institutions, borrowers and issuers.

Mbali Khumalo: Thank you CDH team for organising this conversation, which I think is very important. And I look forward to the discussion.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Welcome to my guests. The first question, we'll go to Dr Fawole, as we heard from your bio, you are the co-ordinator of the Co-Impact Gender Fund project, which is entitled Developing a New Generation of Women Leaders in Law in Africa. Can you please tell us a bit about the project? What is the background? Who are you partnering with? And the progress that has been made by the project so far.

Charissa Fawole: Well, first, I'd like to extend warm thanks to be invited into this conversation, so thank you so much. And so to talk a bit about the project, it was developed in response to Co-Impact’s call for proposals for its new Gender Fund. The aim of this fund is to accelerate the progress of gender equality and women's leadership in Africa, Asia and Latin America. And the focus is on areas such as health, education, economics and law. Co-Impact is a group of philanthropists and foundations that come together to fund these initiatives using a systems change approach and they look at feminist and intersectional lenses.

So where we come in is we developed a proposal – the UJ Faculty of Law and its partners, we have partners within the university, such as colleagues from humanities and the Institute for Intelligent Systems, but we also have partners in industry, such as the South African Chapter of Women Judges, WOZA, of course, and also we have Mapongwana Attorneys Incorporated. Together, we've been successful in that Co-Impact has accepted our proposal and now we're actually in the design phase of the project. And that means, basically, we're looking at increasing women's leadership in both industry in practice, and in academia, in the legal profession in South Africa. So our focus will be on Black female law students and Black female, early career academics, as these groups essentially comprise the majority at the sort of early stages – but when you go and look at the senior levels in leadership, there's a definite disconnect between the numbers we begin with and the numbers at that level.

We want to empower these groups of women so they can enter, remain and take up positions of leadership and thrive within the profession, whether it's in industry or in academia. So what we plan to do is to use a systems change approach. Essentially that means we understand the system, that's the legal profession in South Africa, we understand, What are the problems? Why is the system broken? We want to look at the individuals, how can we improve their lived experience, and develop a vision and feasible changes that we can effect within this system.

So as UJ and our partners, we're going to look at what we do best, but we recognise we cannot do everything. And so we're also looking to engage with other key actors with the system, and essentially develop a coalition, a willing coalition of actors to affect systems change. And so right now what we can talk about, for example, are what we're planning in terms of our initiatives and strategies within the project, looking at mentorship, a transparent and accountable employment and promotion policies. And also we focus on sustainable development goals as well as for AI. And so we're looking at the development of a metaverse. When I say metaverse, you can think about virtual courtrooms, mediations, client interviews. And essentially, we can provide opportunities for training that aren't limited, they can be rolled out throughout the country, not just located in Johannesburg, or at UJ. And so like I mentioned, we're at the design phase of our project and we are essentially developing our strategy around the systems change and engaging with other actors to make this work.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: I think we can all agree that there is definitely a need for such a project. And I am looking forward to seeing the results and the implementation of the project. As you have already touched on, women are often underrepresented in leadership positions within law firms, corporate legal departments and academia. What do you believe are the main factors contributing to this disparity and what can be done to address it?

Charissa Fawole: Thank you for that question. And that essentially goes to the heart of why we've engaged on this project and initiative. And so really looking, taking a step back, we can see that there are formal and informal factors that make this system broken, especially for females in engaging in leadership positions.

First, though, I'd like to talk about intersectionality. It's a term that has growing popularity, at least in academia, and it was developed by an American law professor named Kimberly Crenshaw. And really it does have practical application; it directs us to look at various identities of an individual or group, and how they shape their lived experiences, and also the challenges they face. So when we look at gender – but we can also look at race, religion, ability – while females, lawyers, attorneys, advocates have commonalities in terms of how they experience the profession, there's an added dimension of race or ability or religion, that we also need to take into consideration in how they experience how they work, and any challenges that they face.

In terms of the formal factors, we can look at the ability to enter practice, or to take up positions of leadership, to be promoted, and we can also look at the job market, the competitive nature of practice. And these are some formal aspects we can look at. But what intersects with this, our informal aspects? We still live in a patriarchal society. Yes, we've made great improvements, but there's still much more work to be done. There's the institutional culture within the profession, there are networks that women do not have access to – we sometimes colloquially refer to it as the old boys’ club. And these individuals still wield great formal and informal power. And so many females don't have access to this. We also have voice and agency and power of women. We definitely exercise voice, agency and power, but it's still limited. And when we look at females in leadership in law, they are a minority. And yes, they have a role to play in paying it forward, but that shouldn't just fall on their shoulders, we need other actors to come alongside.

And finally, we look at the issue of gender-based violence. It's something that's prevalent within South African society, but the legal profession is not immune to that.

And so these are formal and informal factors that really affect the ability of women in all aspects of the profession to thrive and to progress. And one way to respond is to identify and the problems and then we need to strategize around it. So how do we change the legal profession? And, yes, we want to look at specific initiatives. But we also want to have a holistic approach that is sustainable; what can we do in the short, medium and long term to affect change? And we could, for example, look at increasing women's leadership in the various areas of the legal profession. So, obviously in the long term, want to see it grow. But what can be done, we can look at the short and medium term, and that might be linked to promotion and retention practices, because for women to pick up positions of leadership, they still have to attain a certain level. And again, it's empowering them. It could be through mentorship, it could be through access to networks, creating allies amongst various actors, that can allow women to progress in positions of promotion, and then take up positions of leadership.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Although much has been done in the past few years to promote women in leadership, I think we can all agree on the call that much still needs to be done, as Dr Fawole just told us now. Simone, as a leader in CDH, can you please tell us what are you doing to pay it forward? And maybe you can also touch on some of the initiatives and mentorship programmes that you're involved in as well?

Simone Franks: Thanks, Muwanwa. That is such an important question, as it speaks to support and partnership which is clearly lacking within the profession. I am fully committed to transferring all skills I have to the juniors in my team. This is not only to ensure their advancement within the department, but more so in the firm and the profession as a whole; rightfully taking up top leadership positions in all organisations that they are part of. I have undertaken to share everything I know with them and to be a support, a sounding board, both professionally and personally, teaching them the hard and soft skills that I have learnt by trial and error along the way.

I would like all my mentees to be the best attorney that they can be and in turn to pay it forward to the next generation. I firmly believe that it is crucial for all firms to build their own timber, and to take this undertaking very seriously.

On a practical level, we meet regularly to seek out opportunities that will raise their profile, both inside as well as outside the organisation. I am conscious of allowing them to run with stimulating and substantial matters that will hone and enhance their skills, allowing them to become specialists within our firm and the profession, and I also encourage them to sit on committees inside and outside the company so as to leverage off the wide-reaching relationships.

I'm very alive to the challenges that female attorneys face in the profession as I've walked that road, and I've experienced that myself, so we do not wait until attorneys come to us with difficulties that may arise, we constantly have to ask the hard and probing questions to ensure that we do not lose them along the way. These questions are not only about the quality of work or how to generate fees, but also about their well-being. Mental health and burnout affect young people in the prime of their lives, yet so little resources and support are available to assist people to cope with this added invisible challenge.

Just to end off, I am a mentor to four people in my firm. And each role is different to the other, and is taken seriously. We meet over coffee, engage, create a safe space, not common in a law firm, we champion – having someone in your corner is vital to your success – clarify misconceptions, provide guidance, celebrate successes, and generally encourage. All in all these are invaluable experiences both for the mentees, my team members, and also for myself.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Thank you, Simone. And as you said, you lead an all-female team, so I think it's a privilege for them to have first-hand experience through you in terms of how to navigate the legal industry, the firm as a whole, and just the challenges for their own well-being, even outside of work. What can leadership do not only at CDH, but throughout the profession to assist the plight of women in this industry?

Simone Franks: Leaders have to prioritise inclusivity and dismantle organisational biases. There must be an emphasis on ensuring that females are not lost within the system. Yes, strides have been made over the years, but clearly this is not enough. It is the duty of leaders to ask the profession to ensure that equality is inculcated in the thought processes and fabric of the organisation. On that note, organisations should rather be hiring for culture expansion, rather than culture fit.

One of the challenges women face in the profession. Not the only one, though, is when they start a family; the workload and the fees that they need to generate does not change, and it is difficult to do that balancing act successfully. Also, as a parent, you're torn between the two positions. It is not always easy to have the flexibility to attend school events, or even to look after yourself properly. And you feel guilty when you do. Yet you spent all those years at university studying, dreaming about your role within the profession and proving yourself along the way. Those are the unfortunate realities. It is easier for our male counterparts to focus all of the time on their work. Therefore, the majority of departments in legal firms are held by men, not because women are not competent, but because these are the barriers that affect them. Leadership has to continually recognise this and not to make assumptions so as to break down these barriers. We cannot afford to lose our timber along the way. Leaders throughout the profession should look at fee structures and devise creative initiatives that make it attractive and seamless for women to advance within the profession.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Yes, women do face different challenges than our counterparts. The question then arises, I'll pose this to Laura and to Mbali, how does one balance the need to promote, encourage and give women opportunities against the view of being deemed as bias or discriminatory against our counterparts? I mean, should this even be a consideration at all having due regard to our history as a country where women have been systematically oppressed and denied opportunities for years? Perhaps Laura can answer first and then Mbali after.

Laura Dlepu: Thank you very much. To your question, I'd say I don't believe there is a need for balance. The numbers don't lie. If I can just give you some of them: of the 8,051 registered advocates on the LPC’s roll in April, only 31% were women. And as for attorneys, out of the total of 26,342, only 45% were women. The numbers are not lying; women are just not adequately represented in the profession in general.

We've had different reports and research reports submitted by the Women's Legal Centre and ADAL, ourselves, WOZA, and the Law Society of England and Wales, the Institute for African Women in Law, and now with the project that we have with UJ, we're showing that there's no argument to be had for bias or discrimination against our counterparts. It's not unrealistic to want the legal profession to represent the country's demographics and diversity, when that is one of the mandates of the Legal Practice Act [28 of 2014]. And for our counterparts who believe or feel that they're being discriminated against, all I can say is, when you're accustomed to being privileged, equality will feel like oppression.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Thank you, Laura. Mbali?

Mbali Khumalo: I absolutely agree with what Laura was saying, I think there is no need for a balance when women have faced inequality for so long. I think it's quite a difficult position. And I think, Dr Fawole talks about it, the barriers that exist, not only in terms of gender, but in terms of race as well, taking cognizance of how many Black women you find represented in the legal profession. If you then start drilling down into those numbers, it's not as high as we would expect, right? And so I do think that we need to start being proactive in creating, for one, those avenues that create space for women to be represented in the legal profession.

And that starts quite early. It starts in how, for example, law firms look at their targets in terms of offering bursaries to students who want to study law. It must look at policies around appointment of candidate attorneys to disparities around those numbers. How do we change policies? Because when we change policies that allows, in effect for everybody to sort of follow, because there's written law, there's policies around that. And so firms need to be proactive in what they do in promoting that.

We need to look at how do we fund students in universities? What are the support programmes that we have in ensuring that not only are we attracting that talent, but retaining the talent? Because what you'll find, for example, in law firms, there's a high attrition rate where you've got all this great talent coming in, probably fairly represented in numbers for women, but as they progress in their careers, you see a large decrease. What are some of the policies we set in place? What are some of the incentives that we provide?

Simone speaks about something quite important, what supports do we give to women, because the reality is men and women are significantly different. And they face different challenges because of their make up as women, but also the added pressure of having to perform and outperform your male counterparts on a task that is probably as simple as they would do. So how do we create structures? And how do we create policies that will ensure that we actually are advancing women in the legal profession, and we're doing that at quite an early stage?

So if we have, at the onset, quite big mentorship programmes that look at varsity students, and that builds throughout their career, by the time someone is a senior associate, preparing to be partner, that journey becomes a seamless one. And as they’re moving along the ranks, do we even have support? Because I often find that now, when women move into those senior position, which we know there aren't a lot of women in those position, there isn't enough support, there isn't enough programmes that help them  in fighting things like imposter syndrome, in ensuring that they are interfacing with the right people, and that they have the voice, because you can have leadership, but without a voice. And that doesn't really equate to real leadership, if you can't make changes, if your voice can't be heard, or you can't impact. So we need to have policies that drive transformation, that drive our initiatives around women advancements, which will then help and translate into actually changing those numbers. Because, for where we are, in terms of our democracy, for where we are in terms of the profession, and celebrating 100 years, it seems that there's still a long way to go.

And I think it's incumbent on each and every person within the legal sector, whether in academia, whether in the law firms; they play a significant role. And also recognising the prejudice that exists within different levels that may not exist, for example, for a White female, but exist for a Black attorney, and making sure that we actually meet that gap. Until it's an equitable equilibrium, which will take quite a while because men have sort of had a first run at it, and they've moved significantly. And I think we are trying to catch up, but more efforts need to be made at that to allow that we bridge that gap. And part of it is how do we bridge the pay gap?

How do we ensure that we pay women what is due to them and ensure that they get the same benefits or incentives that their male counterparts do? So I do think we need to be more deliberate, we need to be, I think, unapologetic about the initiatives that we're putting in place to ensure that women are adequately represented.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Yes, I think from this whole conversation, and we can tell that there's still a lot that needs to be done, but it's platforms like the one we are on now and projects as the one that Dr Fawole is part of and WOZA as well that do make a difference, that do move the needle towards to where we want to be or where we can be. Laura, WOZA has been doing great work, what are some of the initiatives that WOZA is involved in at the moment that are aimed at correcting the under representation of women in law?

Laura Dlepu: At the moment our core focus is on the project with UJ and Co-Impact. But some of the things that we have done in the past, in 2020, when we weren't able to have the WOZA awards, we pivoted and decided to start the Leadership Academy where we had eight webinars, partnered with Judge Victor and South African women judges making a difference, where we invited students and practitioners alike to join us in webinars, where we’d discuss different areas of law and how to branch into those areas of law.

We also had Judge Kathree-Setiloane and Justice Weiner present, and in 2021, we started our partnership with UJ, where we had the UJ career junction, where we specifically targeted our webinars to the law students at UJ. And we partnered with the NPA [National Prosecuting Authority], the Chief State Law Advisor, just to give them insight on different career paths that they can follow post graduating. And that's really the core of what WOZA wants to do, we aim to correct the under representation by providing training in specialised fields of law that are currently male dominated, such as competition law, intellectual property and maritime law.

And we also aim to celebrate the woman lawyers currently making strides in their specialised areas of law by hosting the WOZA Woman in Law Awards every two years, for now, we hope to have it every year, but it's just every two years for now. And in the past two editions that we have had, we've seen a lot more women lawyers putting themselves forward for nomination. And that just goes to show that they are building confidence in themselves and becoming stronger and more vocal in their abilities.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Thank you, Laura. And it is true that starting from graduate level is most important because they are the future of this industry, and also just to provide them the support that they need, I think that is very crucial and will make a big difference. Mbali, you are a leader at one of the biggest law firms in the country. With great power comes great responsibility. So what are you doing to pay it forward? What are the initiatives or mentorship programmes that you're involved in, which are aimed at correcting the underrepresentation of women in law?

Mbali Khumalo: My bio notes that I actually spent a year in New York working in one of their leading firms. And I added that because I think it was a significant part that contributed to where I am today as a young professional. And that programme was actually called the South African Legal Fellows Network. And it is basically a programme by the Vance Center for International Justice, which is a non-profit programme of the New York City Bar. And it aims to promote development, transformation in the corporate legal space, and to allow sufficient representation.

As part of that programme, you're given an opportunity to spend one year in a leading law firm to learn from that and to enhance your skills, to interact with various stakeholders within the legal fraternity in New York. And the aim is for you to come back into your home country and plough those skills back. The programme was largely South African for quite some time, and now it extends to Nigeria, Kenya, Uganda and Rwanda.

That programme for me was quite significant in my journey, because I think, for one, it validated my experience, it allowed me to grow and develop, and actually gave me the international experience that is required to succeed in the profession. Those kinds of programmes are quite important in ensuring that young lawyers actually get to experience and grow in their craft.

But as part of that programme, as I said, I needed to come back and plough back, and I do that in my day-to day-training. I think training is quite important in how we train our juniors, in training the people we work with, and allowing them to get that skill and benefit.

But one of the biggest programmes that actually came out from that Vance Center is what they call the Woman in the Profession Program, which has run for around five years in Latin America. And it was only last year that that programme flagshipped in South Africa, and I was part of the first set of mentors selected to actually mentor young, Black female attorneys. And as part of that programme, I think the emphasis is to promote the advancement of women in the legal profession, with an emphasis on individual leadership and leadership within our profession.

I continue to be a mentor as part of that programme, both on an informal and formal basis. I continue to contribute to that programme and some of the programmes that have been set up to encourage mentorship, to encourage leadership within women.

The project includes a mentorship programme, gender, diversity and inclusion surveys, and other activities. The programme not only focuses on practicing attorneys, but it focuses on advocates and aims to look at the legal profession as a whole.

On an informal basis, as I said, I continue to train juniors, I continue also to mentor university students, because I think it's quite important to start very early while they are still making a decision, which path to follow, whether to go into corporate law, whether to be an advocate, what are some of the considerations. Because the truth is that not everyone who goes into university has been exposed to the actual workings of law. A lot of people who come from previously disadvantaged homes or backgrounds often know that there’s this legal profession, because, for example, of the series they watch, or they've heard about someone, but I don't think they know the technicalities or the workings or some of the options, actually, that are widely available.

I think of my own experience when I was starting out, you know, I knew there was this law profession, and I went and I did an LLB, but I wasn't as aware as I should have been around things like having to apply for articles quite early to ensure that you've got articles and that it is a competitive sector, having to do internships and all of that.

So my aim, whenever I interact with university students on an informal mentorship basis, is to give them those options to say, this is such a huge career, here are some of the options, there's internships, you can clerk for being a judge, there are all these options, so that when they make the decisions, it becomes an informed one, it becomes one that allows them the biggest chances to succeed in the profession as a whole.

I also think it's quite important not only to look at mentorship, but to look at sponsoring. Someone says they draw a distinction to say sponsoring is someone who will speak for you when you're not in the room. And I think as leaders, do we say the right things at the right time for the for people that work for us, or for people that we believe would be an asset in the profession? I think for sponsoring to be pushed, as important as mentorship is, to allow that person, you know, because you could have a great academic history, you could be doing very great work in your practice, but if your name is not being said out in the right spaces, you know, success also becomes … there are hurdles to it then.

So I think coaching, mentorship, training, equipping people with the right skill, ensuring that they are introduced to the right people, that mentoring that will allow them to succeed. And I think I've been actively doing that, because I'm conscious as a Black woman who comes from a township and having experienced my own challenges, in that, how do I actively in my day to day, how do I make sure that happens? You know, I'm a firm believer that you can change the world by simply doing what you can in the position you are, and in the resources you have.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Sometimes we get wrapped up in the whirlwind of our business and billable hours that have to be met, papers that have to be written and everything, that we forget the understated factor, which is mentorship and just availability and being seen. Especially, as you said, Mbali, in underrepresented communities, you know, from the township. The township girl might be looking up to you and say, oh Mbali has done it, so can I. So thank you very much for your activeness in that space.

Thank you so much to my guests today. I just have one final question to everyone. Perhaps Dr Fawole can answer first. What message do you have for aspiring women lawyers who may be discouraged by the challenges they face in the field? What advice would you give to them to help them succeed?

Charissa Fawole: My advice to women who are beginning in the legal field when they face challenges, is don't be dissuaded; see them as opportunities to progress, reach out for help and assistance where they need it. And most of all, believe in themselves, understand that they've gotten to this point by their skill, hard work and initiative and to continue doing that and essentially not to let the challenges put them off. They can look for other opportunities to achieve their goals.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Thank you, Dr Fawole. Simone, can you please give us your thoughts?

Simone Franks: Believe and trust in yourself. You have come this far. So don't allow any person or organisation to make you feel excluded or marginalised or that you have to fit in.

Women must be encouraged to take up leadership roles and to actively participate in decision-making processes, join complementary organisations and offer a lending hand. You will quickly be recognised as being proactive and a dynamic leader. Do not be afraid to put up your hand to join committees within your firm. This allows for efficient and effective collaboration from which many benefits are derived.

Read international journals that will sharpen your opinions, market yourself to increase your influence and to build your career. Show up positively and engage meaningfully. The challenges faced by our predecessors and the initiatives implemented as a result of their successes must pave the path for our future accomplishments. It is thus an exciting time to be in the profession. It is rife with opportunity, and the more voices heard, the better the outcome for all of us, including our male counterparts.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Thanks, Simone. Laura?

Laura Dlepu: To our aspirant practitioners and legal academics, I want to say to you, urban poet Rupi Kaur once wrote, “I stand on the sacrifices of a million women before me thinking, what can I do to make this mountain taller so the woman after me can see farther?” The past 100 years have been a labour of love for us. And I believe that we have a duty for future generations to continue on that path. It's difficult now. It's very difficult, we know, but we are working to make things better. And it's important that you make yourselves available for the opportunities that lie ahead. Don't give up, continue to work on yourselves and being the best version of yourselves that you can be, and go ahead and change the world.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi: Mbali?

Mbali Khumalo: I would say grab every opportunity, even when you do not feel ready. I think as women we're often too concerned with the prospect of failure that we shy away from all opportunities. Don't let fear or doubt rob you of your opportunities to be great. Secondly, be committed to learning, always. The practice of law requires continuous learning in order to enhance your skills and knowledge.

Take each working opportunity or transaction as a moment to learn something and to gain experience. No transaction is a wasted transaction. But more than anything, remember that you are capable and enough. We often forget how far we've come or what is achieved when we are faced with adversity, or when we are out of our comfort zone. You are enough and you are capable.

Muwanwa Ramanyimi:  Thank you Dr Charissa Fawole, Simone Franks, Laura Dlepu and Mbali Khumalo. Thank you for all the work that you are doing in your respective environments. May you continue fighting the good fight and playing a pivotal role in turning the tide. I’m Muwanwa Ramanyimi, thank you.